riothero

Trendzetter, you're right about my basic position. I occasionally submit new articles biased *towards* the opposition because I'm eager to spark discussions about Venezuelan politics (and media coverage of said politics) anyway I can and because I believe in promoting dialogue between the supporters and opponents of President Chavez. But in this case, I'm genuinely confused. I read vivachavez's comment as being sarcastic. Of course the Chavez government could not have managed to rig all these independent polls! Is there anything about my submission that suggests that this might be the case? I'm not sure if you read the Reuters article I submitted, but it contains very 'good' news about Chavez's re-election prospects. In fact, I'm quite surprised that you hadn't submitted it first! As a sidenote, have you noticed peoples' increasing dismissiveness towards from venezuelanalysis.com, the best English-language source for pro-Chavez news? I actually had a falling out with a family friend because he refused to believe anything reported from the site, even when it merely announced the results of objective studies, reports.

You called it a "government sponsored massacre" yet even now you cannot defend that description honestly. If the Tupamaros were involved in the shooting, it still falls short of being a government sponsored massacre. I am not aware of any order that the government had instructed them to shoot peaceful protesters. You are also ignoring the fact that people from both sides of the political divide were killed, and that both sides participated in the shooting. However, CIA documents show that only one group of people had advanced knowledge of what happened that day, and these were the opposition leaders against the Chavez government at that time. These leaders planned to "[exploit unrest stemming from opposition demonstrations slated for later this month](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/international/americas/03venezuela.html?_r=1)"; *the blood of the dead is on their hands*, not the Chavez government, no matter how strongly you may oppose it. By pretending that "the Chávez government provoked the crisis," even when you know the truth, you're literally repeating the same propaganda points issued by Ari Fleischer, spokesperson for the Bush administration. This is a profound betrayal of the Venezuelan people. I see no point in continuing to argue with you. What you said does not amount to a "government sponsored massacre" even if it were true. The coup leaders had advanced knowledge of civil unrest that day (how did they know this?) and, rather than attempt to stop it, proceeded to exploit that violence to attempt a takeover of government--CIA documents prove that. And the Chavez government did not. I assumed that, as someone who was so worried about losing contact with your parents that day, you would be a little bit more concerned to blame the people who were truly responsible for instigating the violence that day. I regret that you have held to this wrongful position, because I've found the other things you've had to say very insightful, and I'm sure that we could have had a very positive, productive exchange about your home country.

I understand the frustration in not having someone address your comments. But ever since I started responding to you, I have had one major complaint. And I believe I deserve to have that answered first. Why did you lie? So far you've agreed with me about Carmona, and just about everything I've said. So why the fucking lie? I can provide a lengthier response, but where would that get us? I pretty much agree that you have some valid concerns, which is why I didn't choose to refute them. I just don't understand why you lied about April 11, 2002. Edit: I'll address each of those issues individually, if it pleases you. It'll have to wait. As I've suggested, we could see eye-to-eye on a lot of these issues, which is why I'm disappointed that you've chosen to lie so brazenly.

Listen, we can debate the small points another time, but I see that you are a reasonable person. So *why* did you feel the need to misrepresent the tragic events of April 11 2002 as a "government sponsored massacre"? Why did you take an event for which the opposition was by far the more responsible party, and blame it on the government instead? The lying seriously undermines your credibility! I am only a 'supporter of the current system' because I find myself having to defend what I see as true against the lies being spread about the Chavez government, like this one. If you were instead honest about the facts, and if the facts truly spoke for themselves, we could have seen eye-to-eye on these matters.

Everyone: this is the attitude of the small opposition. He or she has nothing but contempt for the Venezuelan people. If it were up to him or her, they would have no say in who governs them. Because he or she doesn't like who the people elect, Port-au-prince condemns the whole country. It is shameful!

I'd like to believe you. But [Kajarago](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/to97c/when_i_was_a_kid_i_witnessed_a_woman_burn_herself/c4ocnbi) has 34 karma for contributing just "Chavez is a piece of shit" in reaction to AthosPorthosAramis lying about a "government sponsored massacre" that was actually instigated by the leaders of the political opposition at that time. I'm sorry for being "hostile and extremely accusatory" but I believe that that is the proper response when you catch someone lying about the tragic deaths of 19 peaceful protesters. I had no idea that I'd be better off shouting "so and so is a piece of shit" than citing the New York Times and CIA documents!

>I can detail many more atrocities committed by the Chavez government to my family, so I know for a fact that it's not only "opposition instigation." You know "many more atrocities" but when the opportunity comes along to name them in a thread like this, you take an event *perpetrated by the political opposition to Chavez* and blame it on the Chavez government itself? Please detail them. I would find your word more credible if you hadn't called the events of that tragic day in April 2002 a "government sponsored massacre", while *excusing* the actual one responsible as just "no saint". You are disrespecting the individuals who actually did perish that day. For 200 karma points! So name them. Please, name the 'atrocities' that the Chavez government has committed to your family. Trust me, as someone very interested in Venezuela, following its news and politics for years, I would like to know. I agree that Venezuela's problems run deep. But I also agree [with the majority of Venezuelans](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6906), who are [likely to re-elect Chavez this year](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/26/2769833/chavez-returns-to-venezuela-ailing.html), that life is improving and that the Chavez government is largely responsible for that.

I disagreed with you earlier (when you called the events of 11 April 2002 a 'government sponsored massacre'), and I still beg to differ with your bleak outlook about the country's future (assuming that Chavez survives cancer and the next election). By the way, the majority of Venezuelans also disagree with you--[ACCORDING TO GALLUP, VENEZUELA IS THE FIFTH HAPPIEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6906). There have been *vast improvements* (that is, relative to the past!) under Chavez that were unthinkable under previous governments! You mention [*"poverty"*, but that's *been reduced by more than half under Chavez*--'extreme poverty' has fallen by 72%!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_government#Income_and_Poverty) He's lowered unemployment to 7.5% in site of the global financial crisis! Venezuela currently has the *lowest percentage of social inequality in Latin America*, [according to the UN](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6388). If you need more examples (sometimes opposition people live in a 'bubble', not unlike Republicans who watch Fox News in the U.S.), I haven't even gotten started; I can go on and on (Yes, I'm aware that crime has gone up, but that's hardly attributable to Chavez's government). And how much worse things would be if the old ways were restored! But I do like this line here: >Chavez is only the tip of the iceberg and a figure head for the marginalization of the country. Chavez is a symptom of a disease, of a mentality. I admit that's a lot closer to the truth than lots of people are saying, so *I give you credit*. The situation in had gotten so bad, the oppression and inequality, that a political figure like Chavez was bound to become embraced by the Venezuelan people. Venezuelan democracy, so stable for years, was on the verge of collapse. In my view, Chavez saved it the only way possible by founding the Bolivarian Republic, and laying it on top of a new constitution and a revived public spirit. OK, I respect what you said in the line quoted above though. Anyway, it's not often political opponents can be civil. So I thought I'd try.

To be honest (because many aren't), it's probably impossible to tell just who started the fight, or who shot first. Recall that there were two demonstrations that day. The anti-government demonstrators decided to re-route the march so as to confront the pro-government demonstration! Both sides claim that they were there peacefully, and did not want to provoke anyone. It was a tragic mess, involving both sides, but a few [conspirators had advanced knowledge](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/international/americas/03venezuela.html) that civil unrest would take place, and those were the opposition leaders who had planned the coup! I have a friend on reddit, Ven28, who belongs to the opposition (and we fight all the time), but even he admits that "[as a person who protested that day, I believe we were lied by the media, by the political leaders of that time](http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/qp4qh/venezuelas_chavez_needs_more_cancer_treatment/c4cvqvs)." The privately owned media sided with the coup leaders and began spewing propaganda; the state run media was mysteriously taken off air and unable to broadcast the truth! Imagine what Chavez government officials and supporters experienced, how they felt as they were shot at, taken prisoner, and forced into hiding (only to return two days later when the Venezuelan people took to the streets and demanded that Chavez return)! So I'm sure they too have very shocking/terrifying/traumatic stories to tell, but are unfortunately underrepresented on reddit.

I do not doubt that you were terrified by the events of April 11, 2002. But I alarmed that you misrepresent those events as "government sponsored massacre". A total of 19 peaceful protestors died that day, from both sides of the country's political divide, and both sides were involved in the shooting, after an anti-government march was re-routed so as to confront the pro-government rally in front of the Miraflores, the President's building. In [2004, the New York Times uncovered CIA documents showing](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/international/americas/03venezuela.html) that the CIA knew that opposition leaders at that time were planning to "*exploit unrest stemming from opposition demonstrations* slated for later this month". Isn't it curious that opposition leaders had advanced knowledge of this supposed "government sponsored massacre" and yet did nothing to stop it? Neither the Chavez government, nor the ordinary protestor had such knowledge. The opposition leaders at the time (right-wing business leaders and military officials) deliberately provoked civil unrest, endangering the lives of thousands of protesters that day, and they did so because they *wanted* to incite a violent government response. Only such an crisis might possibly justify the coup attempt planned for later that day. I have a friend on reddit, Ven28, who belongs to the opposition (and we fight all the time), but even he admits that "[as a person who protested that day, I believe we were lied by the media, by the political leaders of that time](http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/qp4qh/venezuelas_chavez_needs_more_cancer_treatment/c4cvqvs)." The privately owned media sided with the coup leaders and began spewing propaganda; the state run media was mysteriously taken off air and unable to broadcast the truth! Imagine what Chavez government officials and supporters experienced, how they felt as they were shot at, taken prisoner, and forced into hiding (only to return two days later when the Venezuelan people took to the streets and demanded that Chavez return)! So I'm sure they too have very shocking/terrifying/traumatic stories to tell, but are unfortunately underrepresented on reddit. Editted: I was excuse of being "overtly hostile and extremely accusatory" (and I also mistakenly thought that Athos's parents had been killed in the events) so I re-wrote my basic point to sound less angry.